weechief
Full Member
'ello all
Posts: 225
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Post by weechief on Sept 19, 2010 23:03:03 GMT
Going to stick my oar in a bit here.
Can't say I watched the ridden M&M judging so wont comment on it at all. As for the third place getting the champion, I do believe that this issue was resolved to all parties satisfaction on the night and the third place is no longer the champion. An example of the show organisers quickly and efficiently dealing with problems as and when they arose. Not the mark of a Grand Sham as one of the thread contributers so wittily put it.
To say you wont come back to a show because of the (in your eyes) poor judging is a bit silly, unless of course you believe that exactly the same judges will judge exactly the same classes next year. Showing is a pretty pony competition and by it's very nature subjective; you win some (when you shouldn't) and you lose some (when you shouldn't).
I personally take a more philosophical approach to perceived poor judging. Ranting on a message board about an entire show is not particulalry constructive and more likely to induce the organisers to give up rather than implement the changes you seek. If you want to improve things, how about constructive comments with a bit of substance. And it also wouldn't do any harm to offer a bit of praise with respect to the bits you liked.
*Hops off soap box*
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Post by puddledub on Sept 19, 2010 23:03:24 GMT
I have no doubt the judges were friendly, but the standard of some of their judging was simply incompetent , in all my years as a judge I have never witnessed in public some of the shams I saw over saturday and sunday, admitted it was all unaffiliated, but c'mon guys.............................................I even witnessed a judge put up as champion a pony that was third in its class over all the first and second prizewinners she had previously judged, the animal being ineligible to even be in the championship, now thats bad!!!, plus embarrassing for the owner, who did raise this with her, only be told later, once the issue had been raised that the judges decision is final - what!!!!! , and that was only one incident on saturday, sunday was no better , great location though. Next year a new name perhaps - grand sham ;D tweeds, it is such a shame that as you profess to has such indepth knowledge and experience as a competitor and (ex)panel judge, that you have chosen to come off all the panels you were on. Judges are in short supply, and it is somewhat disappointing that we cannot see you 'in action' in the centre of the ring ......... or maybe you would like a new career as show secretary/organiser?
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Post by puddledub on Sept 19, 2010 23:05:24 GMT
Gold star to weechief well said
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Post by Lavender on Sept 19, 2010 23:43:20 GMT
Going to stick my oar in a bit here. Can't say I watched the ridden M&M judging so wont comment on it at all. As for the third place getting the champion, I do believe that this issue was resolved to all parties satisfaction on the night and the third place is no longer the champion. An example of the show organisers quickly and efficiently dealing with problems as and when they arose. Not the mark of a Grand Sham as one of the thread contributers so wittily put it. To say you wont come back to a show because of the (in your eyes) poor judging is a bit silly, unless of course you believe that exactly the same judges will judge exactly the same classes next year. Showing is a pretty pony competition and by it's very nature subjective; you win some (when you shouldn't) and you lose some (when you shouldn't). I personally take a more philosophical approach to perceived poor judging. Ranting on a message board about an entire show is not particulalry constructive and more likely to induce the organisers to give up rather than implement the changes you seek. If you want to improve things, how about constructive comments with a bit of substance. And it also wouldn't do any harm to offer a bit of praise with respect to the bits you liked. *Hops off soap box* You stay on that soap box! Very, very well said!!! Showing is a matter of an opinion and it would be a sad old world if we all had the same opinion!! Tweeds, showing, particularly M&M showing, has really evolved into very, very different types! M&M showing, even at HOYS/Olympia level is very inconsistent (IMO!), as you have very different types within each individual breed these days and what is one judges example of the very best of breed type, is different for another judge It makes for interesting classes, IMO!! Oh and Tweeds, instead of slating a show, why don't you volunteer to help judge/steward yourself? Most shows would be grateful these days for judges that have no connection to competitors, due to the rules and regs that societies have!
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Post by JenCraig on Sept 20, 2010 7:25:33 GMT
I would just like to add that i watched Charlie Cousins judging the M&M in hand classes and i thought it was really interesting to watch just how much attention he paid to each individual horse/pony, we never had anything in the in hand classes but i thought his judging was brilliant and he pretty much spoke to each competitor afterwards giving his reasons etc for why they were where they were. He was really good to watch, and i think that whoever was stewarding with him would have learned a great deal.
the veteran judging was a bit strange as she was placing pretty much by age even if the show was foot perfect etc (just to add i was in the class but unplaced due to some canter half pass, two bucks and a couple of flying changes lol) but looking up the line she had moved horses down the line because they were a year younger than the ones in front etc i thought that was a bit strange. it was the same in hand.
anyway! i had a fantastic weekend, great banter all round and a lot of cracking horses/ponies to ogle over ;D
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Post by tweeds on Sept 20, 2010 7:53:44 GMT
Oh, no you wouldnt catch me judging again, I'm far too controversial for that, I just pointed out a few observations, didnt stay for the overall supreme, couldnt stay any longer, but didnt like the 'evening performances whatsoever,(stayed the first night , the whole thing was too long and drawn out, a build up to nothing really, though did see a nice cute 'colt- I think , foal but it had a quite bad hernia , which is hereditory, become a champion............ is this the future?, or were the others so bad ?I dont know , in my opinion Foals are our future as are young riders , perhaps a bit of thought wouldnt go amiss, tomorrow is never far away . congrats to the little girl though, even though I never saw her.
thought the m&m ridden judge made a complete mess , would like to know her history within the breed and wasnt too pleased with the m&m in hand either, knocking hocks just aint my thing! can forgive many things, but like I say its our future perhaps that should be taken into consideration, saw a nice judges hat though lol!!!!!
As for the third placed 'Champion' it may have been sorted, but what an embarresment for the owner and the judge who had previously placed it third, if she couldnt remember that she placed it third its a poor do , no need to say anymore and dont think I will, congarts to all who won..
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Post by rosebud on Sept 20, 2010 8:39:28 GMT
I would just like to add that i watched Charlie Cousins judging the M&M in hand classes and i thought it was really interesting to watch just how much attention he paid to each individual horse/pony, we never had anything in the in hand classes but i thought his judging was brilliant and he pretty much spoke to each competitor afterwards giving his reasons etc for why they were where they were. He was really good to watch, and i think that whoever was stewarding with him would have learned a great deal. the veteran judging was a bit strange as she was placing pretty much by age even if the show was foot perfect etc (just to add i was in the class but unplaced due to some canter half pass, two bucks and a couple of flying changes lol) but looking up the line she had moved horses down the line because they were a year younger than the ones in front etc i thought that was a bit strange. it was the same in hand. anyway! i had a fantastic weekend, great banter all round and a lot of cracking horses/ponies to ogle over ;D The Judge of the veterans has seen this and asked for a response to be put up which i think is terrible as she shouldn't have to justify her actions. "The veteran class was mixed age/mixed height. So, I had NO idea on the go round the age of the animals. I did the initial line up on way of going - nothing more and nothing less. Then I marked the individual shows on walk, trot and canter and condition (i.e. 4 separate marks) and awarded 2 extra marks for those over the age of 20 and 3 for over 30s (there was, in fact, nothing over the age of 25). I also knocked off 2 marks for those which were overweight (of which there were two). And I told the riders of these ponies the reason why they were dropped. And the result was a matter of adding up the marks. Simples"
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Post by JenCraig on Sept 20, 2010 8:54:18 GMT
I would just like to add that i watched Charlie Cousins judging the M&M in hand classes and i thought it was really interesting to watch just how much attention he paid to each individual horse/pony, we never had anything in the in hand classes but i thought his judging was brilliant and he pretty much spoke to each competitor afterwards giving his reasons etc for why they were where they were. He was really good to watch, and i think that whoever was stewarding with him would have learned a great deal. the veteran judging was a bit strange as she was placing pretty much by age even if the show was foot perfect etc (just to add i was in the class but unplaced due to some canter half pass, two bucks and a couple of flying changes lol) but looking up the line she had moved horses down the line because they were a year younger than the ones in front etc i thought that was a bit strange. it was the same in hand. anyway! i had a fantastic weekend, great banter all round and a lot of cracking horses/ponies to ogle over ;D The Judge of the veterans has seen this and asked for a response to be put up which i think is terrible as she shouldn't have to justify her actions. "The veteran class was mixed age/mixed height. So, I had NO idea on the go round the age of the animals. I did the initial line up on way of going - nothing more and nothing less. Then I marked the individual shows on walk, trot and canter and condition (i.e. 4 separate marks) and awarded 2 extra marks for those over the age of 20 and 3 for over 30s (there was, in fact, nothing over the age of 25). I also knocked off 2 marks for those which were overweight (of which there were two). And I told the riders of these ponies the reason why they were dropped. And the result was a matter of adding up the marks. Simples" hey rosebud i wasnt b*tching i was only pointing out an observation i didnt say i disagreed with any of the placings either, it was other competitors that had mentioned that they were told the reason they were put down the line was because the ones above where older, one of the commpetitors was told that even though there horse was her favourite he was marked down because he was only 18? i was just chuffed to bits because i got a "well ridden" and really enjoyed the class so please dont think its a case of sour grapes! its horses for courses and we are all entitled to our opinion on things. Im not saying that i could have done a better job and by all rights i could be wrong in my thoughts but thats all it is edited to add...you know what i had a great weekend, it was fab and a real laugh and regardless of what judges did or did not do im not going to get involved in a big argument over it and let it taint what was a really good show. I didnt accuse anyone of murder i just said i was confused by some of the reasons given end off and im sorry that the judge felt the need to justify her actions so i apologise for that, so maby you can pass on my apologies.
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Post by tweeds on Sept 20, 2010 9:16:17 GMT
I would just like to add that i watched Charlie Cousins judging the M&M in hand classes and i thought it was really interesting to watch just how much attention he paid to each individual horse/pony, we never had anything in the in hand classes but i thought his judging was brilliant and he pretty much spoke to each competitor afterwards giving his reasons etc for why they were where they were. He was really good to watch, and i think that whoever was stewarding with him would have learned a great deal. the veteran judging was a bit strange as she was placing pretty much by age even if the show was foot perfect etc (just to add i was in the class but unplaced due to some canter half pass, two bucks and a couple of flying changes lol) but looking up the line she had moved horses down the line because they were a year younger than the ones in front etc i thought that was a bit strange. it was the same in hand. anyway! i had a fantastic weekend, great banter all round and a lot of cracking horses/ponies to ogle over ;D The Judge of the veterans has seen this and asked for a response to be put up which i think is terrible as she shouldn't have to justify her actions. "The veteran class was mixed age/mixed height. So, I had NO idea on the go round the age of the animals. I did the initial line up on way of going - nothing more and nothing less. Then I marked the individual shows on walk, trot and canter and condition (i.e. 4 separate marks) and awarded 2 extra marks for those over the age of 20 and 3 for over 30s (there was, in fact, nothing over the age of 25). I also knocked off 2 marks for those which were overweight (of which there were two). And I told the riders of these ponies the reason why they were dropped. And the result was a matter of adding up the marks. Simples" So, I had NO idea on the go round the age of the animals.
I did the initial line up on way of going - nothing more and nothing less. Then I marked? (judged surely ?)the individual shows on walk, trot and canter and condition (i.e. 4 separate marks) and awarded 2 extra marks for those over the age of 20 and 3 for over 30s (what)(there was, in fact, nothing over the age of 25). I also knocked off 2 marks for those which were overweight (of which there were two). And I told the riders of these ponies the reason why they were dropped.you judge with your eyes, not with a pen, unless its something like dressage, a veteran class is just that, veteran, if the age of the horse qualifies it, then its eligible, full stop, no added marks for age or anything else. Overweight horses come in all ages, but c'mon , we all suffer from a bit of extra weight as we get older, so long as the horse is sound ??, its difficult to comment, so dont!! too much hype from magasines these days, propoganda from the sspca and such likes, but please, its a veteran class. I am as much against overweight horses as the next person, but point systems? like I said judging is done with an eye and experience not a pen and paper. On another note, I would have loved to see the ridden m&m judge ride. I do know about olympia I bred a winner there, plus judged all breeds of m&m being an nps and puk judge, or are you telling me breed standards have changed so much in the years i havent competed ? Is type, quality so much different, I doubt it.
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Post by niknkia on Sept 20, 2010 9:38:32 GMT
My goodness!!! Whats going on here??? i weas competing and although i missed one of my classes due to lack of Tannoy in the outside warmup, I hope that this will be rectified for the Spring show, i thoguht the dat was fine and the classes Iwas in the placings were fair I had one issue that i raised but to be honest no others that i could see and I watched a fair few classes. Showing is subjective and we are not all going to agree but I think that some of the comments on here have been harsh and a lot can change bwetween a go round amd in indivisual show. nikki xxx
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Post by puddledub on Sept 20, 2010 14:00:23 GMT
I have moved the posts across from the previous thread and re-opened it so that the debate and comments can continue.
tweeds - you must have been out of showing and judging for quite considerable time as many classes are now marked. Some at ALL levels (including Veterans) and some only at HOYS, RIHS, Olympia level INCLUDING M&Ms.
Some judges have a better grasp than others on how to use their marks, some older judges even came off their relevant panels when the marking system came in as they either disapproved or could not cope and adapt their ways.
However they are here to stay and give some accountability to the judges decisions. They do of course have to have the right knowledge before deciding on what mark to allocate to each horse/pony.
As for not penalising overweight horses and ponies, that is shocking!! ALL panel judges have been advised for several season by their societies that overweight animals MUST be penalised and I admire all judges who follow this example.
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Post by Nadem on Sept 20, 2010 14:07:33 GMT
I would like to say that i enjoyed the show a LOT It was a great experience for my yearling - and although he was 3rd ouf of 3 in his first class - at the end of the day he was not the judges cup of tea and i can respect that entirely - it was purely ringtime and experience for him and i could not be happier He was placed 2nd out of a good 9 in his 2nd class - but this we have to remember was different judge - and AGAIN was her decision We all thoroughly enjoyed the show - my mother and myself and we will continue to support the show in the future Everything ran to time Only little thing was the evening championships - as didnt really know what was happening!!! K xxx
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Post by tweeds on Sept 20, 2010 14:53:13 GMT
I have moved the posts across from the previous thread and re-opened it so that the debate and comments can continue. tweeds - you must have been out of showing and judging for quite considerable time as many classes are now marked. Some at ALL levels (including Veterans) and some only at HOYS, RIHS, Olympia level INCLUDING M&Ms. Some judges have a better grasp than others on how to use their marks, some older judges even came off their relevant panels when the marking system came in as they either disapproved or could not cope and adapt their ways. However they are here to stay and give some accountability to the judges decisions. They do of course have to have the right knowledge before deciding on what mark to allocate to each horse/pony. As for not penalising overweight horses and ponies, that is shocking!! ALL panel judges have been advised for several season by their societies that overweight animals MUST be penalised and I admire all judges who follow this example. Ouch puddles, I dont approve of over weight horses and never said I did, perhaps you should state all fatties will be excluded from entering for fear of humiliation, whats overweight?? all the highlands or the majority I saw were vastly overweight. notes were only ever taken if there were a few judges in a large championship so as not to clash with opinions, mark dressage, mark sports horses but m&m etc, are you joking? , if not no wonder the judges were so incompetant - two especially I saw , if the veteran judges disagreed then its a huge loss to the future, the way I saw it, Scotish sports horses have put their future in a 4 week old colt foal with a hernia...................so much for progression, maybe its time to step back and take an objective view instead of a romatic one. Realism and facts are what I have always worked with and will continue to, like I said grand sham on a big scale. I also agree there was a lack of outside tannoy, so it was difficult for me as a spectator to keep up, lord knows how the exhibitors managed.
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Post by gill on Sept 20, 2010 15:05:22 GMT
I feel obliged to point out here that hernias are not always herditary and are relatively common (and usually harmless and self-healing) in any young mammal. I wouldn't expect a judge to mark down because of it - at birth the internal umbilica area is one of the last areas to close as the foal requires nutritional support until birth. They can take up to 12-14 months to heal and no veterinary intervention would be required unless the foal was obviously distressed and it was infected.
A hernia is therefore not a defect.
I had a lovely weekend, and from what I observed and what I can hear from this debate, there are a few sour grapes going around. I can't any more to what weechief and others have written other than to say what do people actually expect? Not everyone can win or be placed.
ETA - this is somewhat overdramatic, no?
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weechief
Full Member
'ello all
Posts: 225
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Post by weechief on Sept 20, 2010 15:11:16 GMT
Tweeds - can I ask what your issue with the judge making notes actually is? I personally cannot see a problem with it; I have a brain like a sieve and so a few notes about a horses performance, or something that the judge felt should put the horse up or down the line isn't really a concern for me. In fact I'd go as far as to say it shows some transparency in the judging process. You may be lucky enough to be able to keep this information upstairs, but some of us mere mortals need props.
I also know that the veteran judge took time to speak to each competitor about their postion in the line up and why. The vast majority of competitors were pleasant and seemed more than capable of asking questions or taking a not so great result on the chin. As such I don't feel you need to take such offence on their behalf.
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